tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post4278769521389423568..comments2023-10-22T09:32:13.417-04:00Comments on Big Trial | Philadelphia Trial Blog: A Juror Finally SpeaksAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04116104602505815614noreply@blogger.comBlogger83125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-26326241910398003452013-04-18T19:25:05.336-04:002013-04-18T19:25:05.336-04:00I really appreciate for your work. Please update t...I really appreciate for your work. Please update this regulaly.<br />Philadelphia escortshttp://www.philadelphiacitygirls.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-42189608986586348042013-04-18T00:29:03.474-04:002013-04-18T00:29:03.474-04:00Archie-just click on heading to get to the field t...Archie-just click on heading to get to the field to commentAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12314012467023147844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-35443667716127537702013-04-17T20:22:18.140-04:002013-04-17T20:22:18.140-04:00John, good point.
Ralph, your new post is not op...John, good point. <br /><br />Ralph, your new post is not open to comments.<br /><br /><br />Archie Francishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13118480141793016031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-50488519500203641862013-04-16T20:08:37.175-04:002013-04-16T20:08:37.175-04:00First, thanks Ralph for your dogged determination ...First, thanks Ralph for your dogged determination on this blog. I really look forward to reading it.<br /><br />Second, during all of these trials, has anyone ever raised the rather indelicate question about the boys' clothing? If a 10 year old (more or less) were buggered for 4 hours by an adult male, his clothing would be horribly stained. I know he was supposedly disrobed, but that type of sexual assault would make a mess of his clothing when he put it back on. I believe he would also have intestinal problems for some time. His mother was a nurse, and one would expect that she would have noticed these symptoms (assuming, of course, that he was assaulted for 4 hours, which I do not believe). I also assume she would wash his clothes, and again she should have noticed a lot of staining. <br />But no one has testified about "Billy's" clothes!John Joneshttp://johnjones.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-38419892381564839212013-04-13T12:44:26.397-04:002013-04-13T12:44:26.397-04:00You're right! I can't remember where we d...You're right! I can't remember where we declined sentences. Latin?SarahTX2https://www.blogger.com/profile/13127925134697324637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-17500508084099950852013-04-13T10:36:08.001-04:002013-04-13T10:36:08.001-04:00Ifind it interesting not a mention of the testimon...Ifind it interesting not a mention of the testimony of the St Jeromes' staff in this article, the 4 separate entrances into the sacristy where the "alleged assault" occurred with the priest, the 2 sacristans that were in the church (and others like them) that handled the wine and vestmest worn by the priests, etc etc.. she believed BD even though he had 3 or4 different stories involving the priest, at least 2 involving the teacher. Guess she didnt wear her hearing aid those days. And 9 to 3 first ballot round certainly appears to be a predisposition that the church andtheir clergy are just evil. As to Avery, because ofhis testimony, he's probably going to be punished and will serve the addl 2 1/2 years. Logic tells me his recantment would lead the average person to give some credence to his recantment, but not in the case ofthis juror as well as the other 11 in that jury room. Those verdicts made no sense based on the evidence in this case. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-24717788214423810552013-04-13T08:49:16.780-04:002013-04-13T08:49:16.780-04:00KO, I think we need to offer you a spot here as a ...KO, I think we need to offer you a spot here as a legal columnist. Can you drop me a line at ralph@bigtrial.net? bigtrial.nethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12188557653424544411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-51891730911867510302013-04-13T08:04:03.694-04:002013-04-13T08:04:03.694-04:00Oh please. The guy were talking about here is a di...Oh please. The guy were talking about here is a disgrace to the real victims of clerical sex abuse. Take off your blinders and maybe you will be able to see that.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-59920524864250299182013-04-12T23:22:49.561-04:002013-04-12T23:22:49.561-04:00kopride, DITTO and thank God you are on this site...kopride, DITTO and thank God you are on this site.fan of kopridehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08787894680957985931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-20893626381970801172013-04-12T21:40:30.854-04:002013-04-12T21:40:30.854-04:00I think the term is "diagram" a sentence...I think the term is "diagram" a sentence, not "decline" a sentence. Just an observation!Archie Francishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13118480141793016031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-22544113107754109532013-04-12T17:07:05.411-04:002013-04-12T17:07:05.411-04:00"Cold and uncaring" Do you mean like how... "Cold and uncaring" Do you mean like how victims are treated here?jim robertsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11021237370520134041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-89661180376156862412013-04-12T16:54:16.788-04:002013-04-12T16:54:16.788-04:00"Because of his actions and being a coward th..."Because of his actions and being a coward the DA got what they wanted in the conviction of the Msgr. All that did was trickle down to this trial."<br /><br />Again, let's not give the Msgr. a pass. Lynn's involvement in a long history of institutional cover up and hypocrisy is worthy of scorn and moral condemnation. His actions in "punishing' Picard and the good nuns for speaking out, alone deserves rebuke. The statutes of limitations ran because of the actions of Lynn in discouraging reporting, challenging credible complainants, lying to victims even when the cleric admitted misconduct, and punishing other priests and nuns who raised concerns. Despite the moral repugnance of everything Lynn is and represents, I am skeptical of the novel legal theory presented to convict him; and the specific factual allegations supporting his conviction, i.e. was BIlly raped and could he have prevented it. See, the church apologists still don't get it. Jumping up and down with righteous indignation and saying that Billy or Mark are POS is the very antithesis of what the church is supposed to be all about. Jesus allegedly hung with prostitutes and the very lowly of his society. He preached compassion for the troubled and disdain for hypocritical clerics. Lynn was the quintessential Pharisee, much more concerned with the trappings of his station and protecting his institution's power. Brennan showed porn to a little boy and slept in bed with them--before he actually lived in a convent with another. Avery groped at least one boy in a drunken stupor. Cardinal B. and his toady Msg got away with far more cover up and outrage then they can ever be held accountable for. Yes, Billy may be a drug addicted POS. And these trials may have been a little too little and a little too late to sustain convictions under sound legal theories. But don't decry the injustice wreaked against the poor AOP and these convicts without acknowledging the systemic abuse that existed and was covered up by the likes of Bill Lynn. <br />kopridehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14033734864815154844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-26579956282165182742013-04-12T15:06:32.564-04:002013-04-12T15:06:32.564-04:00I also agree with you that he did Lynn no favors w...I also agree with you that he did Lynn no favors with his guilty plea. Avery did what was best for Avery, how that is courageous is puzzling.fan of kopridehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08787894680957985931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-18812656663937341292013-04-12T14:44:41.499-04:002013-04-12T14:44:41.499-04:00Anonymous my point was that people are mainly sile...Anonymous my point was that people are mainly silent on Avery because although he supported the defendant's claims, his own credibility is pretty much shot. I imagine that many who read these comments wanted to say "stop" to Joe for opening up the Avery can of worms because it is hard to defend someone with such credibility issues, and if they slam Billy ,then Avery should be fair game.<br /><br /> I agree with you I don't think many on this blog have supported Avery however I remember one comment that referenced Avery's case being unsubstantiated (although found credible by the Archdiocese) and compared him to the suffering of Christ. If I were a family member or supporter of the defendants, I would hope that Joe would be keeping his Avery stories to himself.<br /><br />The alternate juror also shared her views on the attorneys but I don't think either the alternate or this juror based their decisions solely on their view of the attorneys. Avery's and Hagner's testimony was brought into that jury room also ,and for some obviously those credibility issues were glaring.fan of kopridehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08787894680957985931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-83491023664309352842013-04-12T11:53:23.753-04:002013-04-12T11:53:23.753-04:00Besides Joe, who else has supported Avery on this ...Besides Joe, who else has supported Avery on this blog? <br /><br />Everyone knows avery took the deal to avoid a lengthy prison sentence. His bank account will be full when he is freed and he'll be abe to go where he so decides. Because of his actions and being a coward the DA got what they wanted in the conviction of the Msgr. All that did was trickle down to this trial. Fair and impartial, jury of peers. Jury's are to be objective and base the verdict on the evidence presented at trial. The juror for this article has proven that she did not take all the evidence into play. She based her judgement on her view of the lawyers. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-68773874513707885082013-04-12T11:02:18.678-04:002013-04-12T11:02:18.678-04:00If Avery had gone to trial there were others who w...If Avery had gone to trial there were others who were going to testify against him, I believe I read that it was 6 other alleged victims. The statutes had expired so he could not be prosecuted for those crimes but multiple victims taking the stand would not look good for the defendant. So Avery the courageous hero was probably not so courageous after all , but took the deal to save himself a longer sentence if convicted.<br /> I notice the silence of the supporters in reference to Joe's comments about Avery. I think people want to draw the least amount of attention to this star witness and his addiction problems, inconsistencies and abuse issues. <br /><br /><br />fan of kopridehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08787894680957985931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-86220784590551223932013-04-12T09:57:49.206-04:002013-04-12T09:57:49.206-04:00"So, to avoid a likely longer prison term, Ed..."So, to avoid a likely longer prison term, Ed accepted the DA’s ‘sweet deal’, surrendered and then went to jail. I visited Ed while he was in the Graterford facility before he testified in the Engelhardt / Shero trial. When I asked him how he planned to testify about ‘Billy’, he looked me squarely in the eye and said that he wanted to ‘clear his name’.<br />That is exactly what he very courageously did." <br /><br />Joe, I don't blame you for supporting a long time friend. But, there is a bit of the Lord Beaverbrook story to it all: If you recall, Lord Beaverbrook allegedly asked a society lady if she would "live with" a stranger for 5 Million pounds. She responded in the affirmative. Then Beaverbrook asked her if she would "live" with a man for 5 pounds, to which she responded, "what kind of lady do you think I am." Beaverbrook stated: "we know what you are, we are just haggling over the price." <br /><br />To a Philly jury, Ed pleaded guilty to save his own skin, i.e. reduce potential jail time; rather than take the risk of going to trial to clear his name. Then, he came in and testified that he falsely pleaded guilty to sexual abuse of a minor, because they offered him a sweet heart deal. And while he didn't specifically allocute that he raped the boy, he did "falsely" admit to the elements of the crime, a distinction that is probably lost on any normal Philly juror. When he came in and recanted in the Shero, Engelhardt trial, he told the jury that he pleaded to save his own skin but that he was really innocent. Again, that smacks of having your cake and eating it too. I want the sweet heart deal, but I want to clear my name as well. Unfortunately, those two concepts are mutually exclusive. <br /><br />We know what your buddy Ed is. He is a guy that admittedly groomed a kid and then groped him. He will give false statements to save his own skin. Whether he raped 'Billy" is seriously in question to any objective person in light of the inconsistencies in the story. But there is nothing about what Ed did that was courageous. "Courageous" would have been to take the now doctor home the next day after he groped him; admit the act to the boy's parents; check himself into a good substance abuse rehab; ensure that the boy received counseling for his unimaginable breach of trust; and seriously think about whether he should have contact with adolescents in the future. If the boys parents sought fit to bring the incident to the attention of the authorities, then he should have admitted it and accepted the consequences. He did none of that. I don't believe in convicting someone wrongly in the present for the sins of the past, but I do object strongly to your characterization of Ed as courageous. The only party who was courageous is the kid who he groped that went on to be successful despite Avery's breach of trust. <br />kopridehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14033734864815154844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-58554840858353883962013-04-11T23:33:46.766-04:002013-04-11T23:33:46.766-04:00As always, KOPride, your insights are very interes...As always, KOPride, your insights are very interesting and thought provoking!Archie Francishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13118480141793016031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-40392290848747057472013-04-11T23:31:26.269-04:002013-04-11T23:31:26.269-04:00It is refreshing, isn't it? Like the cool bre...It is refreshing, isn't it? Like the cool breezes blowing outside!Archie Francishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13118480141793016031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-6181281569241658422013-04-11T17:29:04.387-04:002013-04-11T17:29:04.387-04:00I don't know about the rest of you, but I am e...I don't know about the rest of you, but I am enjoying a Dennis Ecker-free day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-30175185826647718492013-04-11T16:21:25.337-04:002013-04-11T16:21:25.337-04:00"Good points. I will say that McGovern did us..."Good points. I will say that McGovern did use that tactic of implying Billy was mistaken throughout the trial. . . . It was presented and was pretty successful, at least I thought. But I was wrong." <br /><br />I am not blaming McGovern; I wasn't attending the trial; and hindsight is 20/20. But timing and tone are everything. If the prosecution already brought it out and there was reams of evidence that Billy was a hopeless lying drug addict before McGovern started; then even the soft touch will backfire. And it can't be phoney. I have had cases where evidence went in perfectly for a client; and the jury came back with an unfavorable verdict. I am telling you that I tried to be very soft pedalling on "victim judgment" issues in a focus group; and more than half the deliberation was expressing outright indignation over even the minor comments I made. When I didn't say a word and almost went out of my way to praise her for her fortitude in surviving the ordeal, they spent half the time talking about how women should not be alone in dark places late at night and what was she thinking. <br /><br />Personally, I never try to forget that I am a professional in a suit and tie; and that the ordinary-joe juror may relate a lot more to the witness or plaintiff than a well paid defense attorney. (If you are taking pleasure in somebody else's pain or seem arrogant, your dead) Frankly, its what makes Brennan's lawyer (Brennan) in the last case so effective. The jury sees him as a guy they could have a shot and a beer in a bar with; and they give him a lot more latitude. What is remarkable is that both the alternate, who did lean for the defense; and the actual juror; didn't like the defense lawyers in this case, and felt some degree of sympathy for Billy. That suggests to me that they thought that the defense team was disrespectful or arrogant in some way. Both jurors seemed to like the judge. Another way to piss jurors off is to be disrespectful of a judge that they respect. These lawyers were representing members of an institution that espouses forgiveness, compassion, respect, faith, and second chances. Treating Billy with anything but empathy and compassion is going to seem cold and uncaring. <br /><br />kopridehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14033734864815154844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-55138901150802043592013-04-11T14:48:39.003-04:002013-04-11T14:48:39.003-04:00The analogy I always use is that nobody likes rats...The analogy I always use is that nobody likes rats. But if you saw a kid tie a string to a rat's tail and proceed to torture it for an hour or two, you would start rooting for the rat. The other example is Pretty Woman. Julia Robert's character was a street walking whore; not a High-class" escort, but a gal that hung on corners to jump in cars with strangers. Any time that character was treated by people as the "whore" she was; in the tony boutiques, at the hotel, or by Gere's lawyer (played by Costanza) who asked her for a "date" at the polo field, the audience sided with the "whore" over the respectable member of society. In reality, if a Kensington tweaker-car-bunny walked into the Four Seasons to have a drink at the bar, the patrons would have no problem with the establishment throwing her out or asking her politely to leave--but if he insulted her or denied her humanity while doing his job, it would raise some sympathy. Calling a whore, a whore, or a dirtbag a dirtbag, is not a way to win over jurors.<br /><br />We make that mistake sometimes as trial lawyers. We see the case as we see it; instead of how 12 neighborhood people are going to see it. The jurors know you have a job to do; but if you deny the witness's humanity while doing your job, they will view you as a sadist. Sometimes prosecutors can get away with it; or a Plaintiff's attorney representing a very injured person against a big unfeeling corporation; but if you are dealing with a person who has any connection with the jury, they will hate you. Good lawyers make this mistake sometimes. Great lawyers make this mistake once and never make it again. When I am asking difficult questions of a vulnerable witness, I want them to see that I am really troubled by having to ask a troubled person such an embarrassing question. If you ask the questions properly, the jurors will actually feel sympathy for you and respect the fact that you upheld their dignity. The defense lawyers should have treated Billy like they would want someone to treat their own troubled son; with patience, empathy; and kindness; while doggedly trying to get to the truth and fairly represent their clients. if they went after him with gleeful indignation, they did their clients a disservice.<br /><br />And that, in my opinion, is the problem with the whole defense of this case. (And by the way, I made the same comment about Blessington's cross of Lynn. Just because he got away with it in that instance, doesn't mean it was good advocacy.) kopridehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14033734864815154844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-61919540648628402842013-04-11T14:12:52.024-04:002013-04-11T14:12:52.024-04:00As usual, you do not read all of the material here...As usual, you do not read all of the material here. Consequently, coupled with you one track mind, you always miss the point.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12314012467023147844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-80738516535257755032013-04-11T14:04:10.239-04:002013-04-11T14:04:10.239-04:00Sarah, I am more informed that the average person ...Sarah, I am more informed that the average person on the particulars, especially what the Philadelphia Church has in place today, to protect children (I am not aware of what any other denominations has in place or any other group for that matter. I do not read the Inquirer-few people that I know do read it-THEY are on life support and they do not inform me with regards to these issues. I asked you how the Philadelphia Church is now endangering children and be specific. You cannot answer, can you?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12314012467023147844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8876661997317409023.post-11273300109250970852013-04-11T13:53:02.141-04:002013-04-11T13:53:02.141-04:00Joe the groping also involved getting the kid dru...Joe the groping also involved getting the kid drunk and sleeping in the same bed, while Avery himself was intoxicated. Do you condone this? If not then why do you don't you condemn him the same way you do Billy for his past? You have a low bar for Billy's behavior and a high bar for Avery..fair is fair? I can tell you one thing ,if someone in my life was found credibly accused of sexually abusing and plying a minor with alcohol, their credibility just went below zero and the Christmas Eve conversations, well that would come to a stop also. That person would not have the opportunity to "look me squarely in they eye ' and tell me anything ,as Avery did with you. Wow, your defense of Avery is astounding given some of your statements.<br /><br />fan of kopridehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08787894680957985931noreply@blogger.com